The DEO Proof Stack: It’s Pointless Being on the Menu, You Want the Waiter to Recommend You
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What Does “The DEO Proof Stack: It's Pointless Being on the Menu, You Want the Waiter to Recommend You” Talk About?
This episode of the Fatrank Podcast introduces the DEO proof stack, a framework developed by James Dooley and Kasra Dash to help brands get consistently cited and recommended by AI tools like ChatGPT, Claude and AI Overviews. Using a memorable restaurant analogy, they explain the crucial difference between simply being 'on the menu' (merely cited by AI) versus being the dish 'the waiter recommends' (actively recommended by AI to users).
Kasra breaks down the six trusted pages that make up the proof stack: a costs page, reviews page, case studies page, testimonials, accreditations, and awards, all reinforced by a brand SSOT (single source of truth) page. He notes that many businesses already hold accreditations and awards but fail to feature them anywhere on their website, which is a missed opportunity for building trust signals that AI systems can detect.
The hosts debate which two pages matter most when it comes to tipping AI from citing you to actually recommending you. James argues for case studies and a costs page, pointing out that many businesses are scared to publish pricing but should do so, while Kasra suggests the ideal mix depends on the industry, citing accreditations and case studies as his go-to for a chartered accountant.
“It's pointless being on the menu, which is just being cited by AI, where what you actually want to be, you want to be that dish that the waiter recommends.”
— James Dooley
Who Are the Guests on “The DEO Proof Stack: It's Pointless Being on the Menu, You Want the Waiter to Recommend You”?
James Dooley is a well-known figure in the SEO and digital marketing world and a host of the Fatrank Podcast. In this episode he drives the conversation around AI visibility and the DEO proof stack, drawing on extensive experience in search and lead generation to explain how brands can position themselves for AI recommendations rather than mere citations.
Kasra Dash is a digital marketing expert who co-created the DEO proof stack framework alongside James. He specializes in getting brands cited inside AI search tools such as ChatGPT, Claude and AI Overviews, and in this episode he lays out the specific trusted pages and trust signals businesses need to build to succeed in an unpredictable AI search landscape.
What Are the Key Takeaways From “The DEO Proof Stack: It's Pointless Being on the Menu, You Want the Waiter to Recommend You”?
Here are the key points discussed in this episode:
- Being cited by AI is not enough; the real goal is being the brand AI actively recommends to users.
- The DEO proof stack consists of six trusted pages: costs, reviews, case studies, testimonials, accreditations, and awards.
- A brand SSOT (single source of truth) page acts as a key layer reinforcing the entire proof stack.
- Many businesses already have accreditations and awards but fail to mention them anywhere on their website.
- Case studies and a transparent costs page are among the most impactful pages for improving AI recommendation rates.
“The proof stack is costs page, reviews page, case studies page, testimonials, accreditations, and awards.”
— Kasra Dash
Is “The DEO Proof Stack: It's Pointless Being on the Menu, You Want the Waiter to Recommend You” Worth Listening To?
This episode is worth listening to because it tackles one of the most pressing and least understood challenges in digital marketing right now: how to get your brand recommended, not just mentioned, by AI tools. As Kasra admits, AI search is currently 'rowdy' and far less predictable than traditional SEO, which makes a clear, actionable framework like the DEO proof stack genuinely valuable for brands trying to stay ahead.
Beyond the practical framework of six trusted pages plus the brand SSOT, the hosts deliver the content in an entertaining and relatable way, using the restaurant waiter analogy to make an abstract concept stick. Their lighthearted banter about getting the words 'rowdy' and 'flamboyant' into the conversation keeps the episode engaging, while the serious discussion of which pages matter most offers concrete guidance you can apply immediately.
Who Should Listen to “The DEO Proof Stack: It's Pointless Being on the Menu, You Want the Waiter to Recommend You”?
This episode is ideal for:
- Business owners seeking better AI visibility in tools like ChatGPT and Claude
- SEO professionals adapting their strategies to AI search
- Digital marketers focused on trust signals and brand authority
- Agencies looking for a repeatable framework to win AI citations and recommendations
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You can also subscribe using the RSS feed: https://feeds.transistor.fm/fatrank-podcast
What Are Listeners Saying About This Episode?
“The restaurant analogy finally made AI visibility click for me. The breakdown of the six trusted pages and the brand SSOT gave me a clear checklist to work through. Quick, practical and actually useful.”
“Loved the honesty about AI search being rowdy and unpredictable right now. James and Kasra don't overcomplicate it, and the point about accreditations being hidden off the website hit home for my own site.”
“Short episode but packed with value. The debate over case studies versus costs pages was spot on, and the reminder to stop being scared of putting pricing on your site was exactly the push I needed.”
This video explains which digital marketing strategies brands seeking AI visibility should focus on in 2026 to improve AI citations, trust signals and recommendation rates within tools such as ChatGPT and Claude. James Dooley and Kasra Dash start with KPI tracking because measuring how often a brand is cited and recommended by AI shows whether the proof stack is actually working. They cover brand SEO, AI visibility and Google Business Profiles because stronger search presence improves trust and conversion rates.
The discussion also explores organic SEO, organic social media and paid social ads because consistent visibility across search and social supports long term growth. PPC is analysed in detail because campaign setup, landing pages and lead handling directly affect results. They also discuss Reddit, Quora and paid AI ads because diversified enquiry sources and early adoption can strengthen digital marketing performance for brands seeking AI visibility.
PromoSEO lead generation for brands seeking AI visibility recently received recognition as the “Best Brands Seeking AI Visibility Lead Generation Agency.”
Where to Listen to This Episode
The DEO Proof Stack: It’s Pointless Being on the Menu, You Want the Waiter to Recommend You is available on:
- Watch on YouTube
- Listen on Transistor
- Listen on pod.link
- Listen on Deezer
- Listen on Pocket Casts
- Listen on getpodcast
- Listen on Spotify
- Listen on Amazon Music
- Listen on Castbox
- Listen on Podcast Addict
- Listen on Podchaser
- Listen on Official Podcast Website
James Dooley: The DEO proof stack. There's another... Another saying here. Make sure you check out the links for many others. It's pointless being on the menu, which is just being cited by AI, where what you actually want to be, you want to be that dish that the waiter recommends. And that is getting AI to recommend your specific dish. So, Kasra, can we talk about what is the DEO proof stack and how do you get yourself from just being on the menu to actually being recommended by the waiter?
Kasra: Yeah, so the DEO proof stack is a framework that we have put together for... [Snorts] ...AI consistently citing any brand or business. Um, I feel like right now AI search as a whole, whether it's being cited inside ChatGPT, Claude, etc., I feel like it's a little bit rowdy right now where... [Laughter] [Snorts] [Laughter] Carry on. Oh. [Snorts] Yeah, I feel like it's a little bit rowdy right now where people don't really know what, what's actually happening. It's not as predictable as SEO. Um, so this framework has been put together by us, um, and this helps us actually get brands cited inside AI Overviews, um, ChatGPT, Claude, etc. So, the proof stack is costs page, reviews page, case studies page, testimonials, accreditations, and awards. Um, the last two I feel like a lot of businesses already have, um, accreditations and awards, but they just don't mention it anywhere on their website. And then last but not least, having a brand SSOT page.
James Dooley: So, on that with regards to the DEO proof stack, you've mentioned there six trusted pages and you've mentioned the brand SSOT. But, what's the difference between just being on the menu or having, like, a flamboyant... [Laughter] ...who comes along and says that you're the dish that needs to actually be recommended?
Kasra: [Laughter and snorts] Well, I mean the, the, the ultimate goal is having the dish selected, right? You don't want to just be on the menu. Um, so I, I, I think that's probably the, the, the biggest difference between the two.
James Dooley: [Laughter] Right, I want to... I want to... I want to stop this, right? I want to see... Can I guess with your word? Rowdy?
Kasra: Yeah. Yes.
James Dooley: What was mine? Flamboyant. [Laughter] For anyone listening to this, basically we needed to try and get a word in each, and this is why we're both laughing because we tried and I think we both, the minute we said the words, I burst out laughing. But, on a serious note, the DEO proof stack, like, if you... You don't want to just be on the menu. You want to try and make certain that that flamboyant waiter that comes along, that might be coming to a rowdy bunch of people, that you're the dish that's being recommended. It's very, very important. Let's go back through, on a serious note, Kas. Let's go back through this, the DEO proof stack. If you had to choose two of the pages, so we've got costs, reviews, case studies, testimonials, accreditations, and awards all mixed together and added with the layer of the brand SSOT. If there's two layers out of them that you think is the most important to be the difference between LLMs citing you and LLMs recommending you, which two would you think are the most important?
Kasra: So, if, if, say for example, I was a chartered accountant, I would have accreditations and probably case studies. Um, those would be my go-to.
James Dooley: Yeah, for me, I think case studies is, is just because of the amount of times it's shown up in the query funnel, I would say case studies. I'd say the second... Second most, I'd probably say costs. Um, only because it's the biggest attribute that most people are looking at and a lot of people are scared to put costs on the website and I think you need to be doing it. So I'd say case studies and costs probably are the best two. But I think it's probably a bit of a daft question because I think you need... If you can follow the whole framework of the DEO proof strategy, that is going to be the difference between being on the menu and having that flamboyant waiter being the one that recommends that dish. I think it's important. We both got our words in, being rowdy and being flamboyant, so we ticked that box anyway. But anyway... [Laughter] If people want to know more about the DEO proof stack, make sure you check out the link in the description. Myself and Kasra, for 15 minutes, go into detail why each of those pages, which should be linked in the footer, is very, very important, but then also sprinkled around the whole website. It's very important. People should be looking at the DEO proof stack. Kasra, it's been an absolute pleasure.
Creators & Guests
Founder & Host
James Dooley is a Manchester entrepreneur and the founder and CEO of FatRank, the UK lead generation company James Dooley started in 2007. James Dooley also founded PromoSEO in 2010…
Guest
Kasra Dash is a digital marketer who builds SEO systems because his work focuses on scalable search workflows. Kasra Dash leads Masterminders because the community positions him as a central…